Str8edgepunker
Apr 25, 04:28 PM
Please no insane 15.6" screens with a 16:9 resolution ratio. I don't care whatever else happens.
lmalave
Sep 27, 09:52 AM
I really hope Apple doesn't jump on the camera-phone bandwagon. Seems to go against their philosophy of having devices that do few things but to them far better. And it would make the phone useless to me. But that's just because my employers are sensitive about such devices, with the nuclear reactors and all.
And signing on with Cingular or any other major carrier seems like an even bigger mistake. The only way to truly improve the cell phone user experience is to take them out of the picture and introduce a fair and simple billing system (i.e. MVNO w/ daily flat rate, iTunes-style micropayments).
Umm...apple makes computers, remember? I agree that the success of the iPod is largely due to its elegant and simple design, but Apple also makes MacBooks, iMacs, etc. that are consumer-focused, elegant, and easy to use, yet provide rich functionality.
The thing is, the mobile phone is moving inexorably to essentially be a universal handheld communicator/computer that used to be the stuff of sci-fi films. Acually, if you ask me, the primary "must-have" on the phone of the near-future is high-speed internet access (3G+), not music or camera features. That being said, i think the music and camera features go hand-in-hand with high-speed internet. I think in addition to being able to download songs, you'll be able to listen to iTunes radio stations through the iPhone (if not at launch, then eventually). And having mobile phones acting as video phones will become common, too. Can you say iChat on your mobile phone?
So there you have the long term vision of the iPhone: a phone enabled with iTunes mobile, iChat mobile, PhotoBooth mobile. Not to mention QuickTime mobile, Safari mobile (ok, no need here really - I'm happy with Opera mini), Mail Mobile, iCal Mobile, Address Book mobile, etc. Not to mention the ability to play both the new iPod games and the huge amount of Java Mobile games already available.
I have to say, I already own a Sony Ericsson phone that already has most of the above features. What I am looking for from the iPhone is
1) all the same features as my SE phone, except done a little bit better
2) more seamless integration with my MacBook (though I have 3rd party software do do everything now)
3) a true 3G multimedia phone experience (my T-Mobile contract was up just this month, and the only reason I haven't immediately switched to Cingular and gotten the 3.5G LG CU500 phone is because I'm willing to hold out a few months to see what the iPhone has to offer)
And signing on with Cingular or any other major carrier seems like an even bigger mistake. The only way to truly improve the cell phone user experience is to take them out of the picture and introduce a fair and simple billing system (i.e. MVNO w/ daily flat rate, iTunes-style micropayments).
Umm...apple makes computers, remember? I agree that the success of the iPod is largely due to its elegant and simple design, but Apple also makes MacBooks, iMacs, etc. that are consumer-focused, elegant, and easy to use, yet provide rich functionality.
The thing is, the mobile phone is moving inexorably to essentially be a universal handheld communicator/computer that used to be the stuff of sci-fi films. Acually, if you ask me, the primary "must-have" on the phone of the near-future is high-speed internet access (3G+), not music or camera features. That being said, i think the music and camera features go hand-in-hand with high-speed internet. I think in addition to being able to download songs, you'll be able to listen to iTunes radio stations through the iPhone (if not at launch, then eventually). And having mobile phones acting as video phones will become common, too. Can you say iChat on your mobile phone?
So there you have the long term vision of the iPhone: a phone enabled with iTunes mobile, iChat mobile, PhotoBooth mobile. Not to mention QuickTime mobile, Safari mobile (ok, no need here really - I'm happy with Opera mini), Mail Mobile, iCal Mobile, Address Book mobile, etc. Not to mention the ability to play both the new iPod games and the huge amount of Java Mobile games already available.
I have to say, I already own a Sony Ericsson phone that already has most of the above features. What I am looking for from the iPhone is
1) all the same features as my SE phone, except done a little bit better
2) more seamless integration with my MacBook (though I have 3rd party software do do everything now)
3) a true 3G multimedia phone experience (my T-Mobile contract was up just this month, and the only reason I haven't immediately switched to Cingular and gotten the 3.5G LG CU500 phone is because I'm willing to hold out a few months to see what the iPhone has to offer)
BrettJDeriso
Apr 19, 07:06 AM
Way to bite the hand that feeds you, Steve. What an idiot. Production of Samsung Galaxy S handsets was brought to a crawl last year because of display shortages -shortages caused by tring to satify (oamong other things) Jobs' insatiable appetite for touch-sensitive screens.
Jobs should be kissing Samsung's a__, not suing it.
I suppose it's too much to hope Sammy would cut them off as a customer until this blows over. Of course, that wouldn't be in their best interests.
Jobs should be kissing Samsung's a__, not suing it.
I suppose it's too much to hope Sammy would cut them off as a customer until this blows over. Of course, that wouldn't be in their best interests.
evilgEEk
Sep 4, 08:04 PM
This device is precisely why I haven't replaced my Airport Express (see sig). I sure hope this turns out to be true because this is exactly what I've been waiting for!
New nano and 23" iMac would be sweet too, although I don't need a new computer so it doesn't really affect me much.
New nano and 23" iMac would be sweet too, although I don't need a new computer so it doesn't really affect me much.
mike3k
Sep 4, 07:54 PM
An iPod update is way overdue. It's been almost a year since the last major iPod update.
Philberttheduck
Sep 4, 09:22 PM
Rumors are rampant, but they do bring up a good point, as you do here. Who would want to watch a movie on an iPod? (Well, actually, I have and I do, but that's beside the point.)
LOLLLLLLL Can we just say quote of the year right there? Honestly got me lol. Props to you.
I hope to hell that Apple releases a media server (Tivo on steroids sounds right) with all the necessary inputs and outputs. Honestly, that would justify me getting my parents to get another mac in the household. :-)
But if this new product turns out to be a streaming player, I wouldn't be happy. I'd be MUCH more happy if they released a 80+GB (preferably 120) for 450 bucks 4.5" WS. Streaming portable video player is kinda unnecessary because, like many of you have mentioned before, if you can watch it on your 20" LCD screen why settle for 3-4"? Only time I use streaming music on my PSP is taking a crap or shower. The PSP isn't really loud but I turn off my fan thing and it's more than adequate (I'm not expecting hi-def surround sound while I sing to my favorite GN'R song).
Hell, throw in the idea of an iPhone. Very unlikely but if they release the movie store they better release that full screen iPod. I'm waiting Apple...
iToilet has the VoiceOver option available to congratulate you when your crap falls in. Or there's some script that plays a clip/song when you successfully flush the toilet without it getting clogged. OK i'm done.
LOLLLLLLL Can we just say quote of the year right there? Honestly got me lol. Props to you.
I hope to hell that Apple releases a media server (Tivo on steroids sounds right) with all the necessary inputs and outputs. Honestly, that would justify me getting my parents to get another mac in the household. :-)
But if this new product turns out to be a streaming player, I wouldn't be happy. I'd be MUCH more happy if they released a 80+GB (preferably 120) for 450 bucks 4.5" WS. Streaming portable video player is kinda unnecessary because, like many of you have mentioned before, if you can watch it on your 20" LCD screen why settle for 3-4"? Only time I use streaming music on my PSP is taking a crap or shower. The PSP isn't really loud but I turn off my fan thing and it's more than adequate (I'm not expecting hi-def surround sound while I sing to my favorite GN'R song).
Hell, throw in the idea of an iPhone. Very unlikely but if they release the movie store they better release that full screen iPod. I'm waiting Apple...
iToilet has the VoiceOver option available to congratulate you when your crap falls in. Or there's some script that plays a clip/song when you successfully flush the toilet without it getting clogged. OK i'm done.
Multimedia
Sep 9, 01:11 PM
It also depends if you can run multiple instances of that application. A little help here Multimedia? I know you've used multiple instances of Toast. Care to enlighten us on what other applications we can do the same? Maybe we should make a guide on it...Preemble clarification: I use Toast (http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/toast/titanium/overview.html) in a highly unorthodox way - nothing to do with writing DVDs or CDs. I use it most of the time to write DVD IMAGES that Handbrake (http://handbrake.m0k.org/) understands how to make priistine mp4 files from. I am able to reduce a 4.3GB original EyeTV HD broadcast recording down to 351MB using this method. The result is an excellent, albeit soft, version of the original that can go on an iPod or two on a CD and when played on an analog TV from the iPod looks just like a DVD. On a HD monitor it still looks great. Just a little soft. Sound quality is identical to the original.
I haven't explored what else we can run simultaneously beyond Toast (http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/toast/titanium/overview.html) and Handbrake (http://handbrake.m0k.org/). I can run as many instances of those as I like. But I run out of cores even just running both of them because they will each use more than two cores given the chance to run alone. Running them simultaneously even with a second Handbrake running third, still gets all the jobs done faster than waiting for two to run and then running the third. Handbrake will process up to about 150-160 fps when two copies are running while it will process only about 93-100 fps alone.
Handbrake FPS readings vary a lot between the analysis pass and the writing pass - much slower writing on the second pass than studying-planning the writing scheme on the first pass on both the Quad and the Mac Pro. On the Mac Pro, Toast will use almost all 4 cores given no competition. But so far I'm not convinced it is encoding EyeTV recordings for DVD images much faster than it does on teh Quad - yes 7.1 UB. I need to go back and exact time some encodes on the Mac Pro then compare that here on the Quad to tell.
Just tried to launch a second copy of EyeTV and it's a no go. Maybe if I have another liscense with another tuner like the new hybrid it will work with a second copy - don't know yet. Probably getting an EyeTV hybrid tuner (http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetvhybridna) soon so I can record two HD shows at once.
A Multi-Instance and Multi-Core Usage Guide would be a great help. Does someone with authorization want to start a thread on this subject? I am not authorized to create new threads. But I would be happy to contribute to it. If someone with new thread creation permission does it, please post a link to it here. Thank you.
I haven't explored what else we can run simultaneously beyond Toast (http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/toast/titanium/overview.html) and Handbrake (http://handbrake.m0k.org/). I can run as many instances of those as I like. But I run out of cores even just running both of them because they will each use more than two cores given the chance to run alone. Running them simultaneously even with a second Handbrake running third, still gets all the jobs done faster than waiting for two to run and then running the third. Handbrake will process up to about 150-160 fps when two copies are running while it will process only about 93-100 fps alone.
Handbrake FPS readings vary a lot between the analysis pass and the writing pass - much slower writing on the second pass than studying-planning the writing scheme on the first pass on both the Quad and the Mac Pro. On the Mac Pro, Toast will use almost all 4 cores given no competition. But so far I'm not convinced it is encoding EyeTV recordings for DVD images much faster than it does on teh Quad - yes 7.1 UB. I need to go back and exact time some encodes on the Mac Pro then compare that here on the Quad to tell.
Just tried to launch a second copy of EyeTV and it's a no go. Maybe if I have another liscense with another tuner like the new hybrid it will work with a second copy - don't know yet. Probably getting an EyeTV hybrid tuner (http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetvhybridna) soon so I can record two HD shows at once.
A Multi-Instance and Multi-Core Usage Guide would be a great help. Does someone with authorization want to start a thread on this subject? I am not authorized to create new threads. But I would be happy to contribute to it. If someone with new thread creation permission does it, please post a link to it here. Thank you.
Stevamundo
Apr 28, 06:02 PM
Microsoft is still doing very well. They're making the best products they ever have done and as a customer I am very pleased with all of my Microsoft purchases.
- Zune desktop software
- Zune hardware and mobile software
- Windows Phone 7
- Windows 7
- Office 2010
- Office 2011 for Mac
- Xbox 360
- Xbox Live
All great products and deserve to be class leaders if they are not already. I can't think of another company (including Apple) that has put out such a fantastic range of very good products.
Really? I mean really? Zune? You forgot to write down Vista too kid. LOL!
- Zune desktop software
- Zune hardware and mobile software
- Windows Phone 7
- Windows 7
- Office 2010
- Office 2011 for Mac
- Xbox 360
- Xbox Live
All great products and deserve to be class leaders if they are not already. I can't think of another company (including Apple) that has put out such a fantastic range of very good products.
Really? I mean really? Zune? You forgot to write down Vista too kid. LOL!
ucfgrad93
Apr 25, 02:16 AM
I never said my actions were morally right. I'll admit that my actions are probably very immoral, and ethically wrong. The simple fact is I don't care about how people view my morality or ethics. Why should I care what people think of me. I never said it bothers me that you guys are not agreeing with me, all I said is that I find it laughable.
-Don
This is the same attitude that people like Bernie Madoff, Kenneth Lay, etc had as they totally scammed thousands of people out of billions of dollars.
-Don
This is the same attitude that people like Bernie Madoff, Kenneth Lay, etc had as they totally scammed thousands of people out of billions of dollars.
swissmann
Apr 4, 12:23 PM
How about the whole incident being avoided by people being honest and working for what you want. In this case no robbery, no need for a guard, no guns, no death. Ideally we shouldn't need locks on our doors or guards in the first place (unrealistic I know).
I do think most people are good though. My local Apple store had a door lock malfunction one morning and a dozen people were inside roaming around looking at things before management came to open the store. Nothing was stolen.
I do think most people are good though. My local Apple store had a door lock malfunction one morning and a dozen people were inside roaming around looking at things before management came to open the store. Nothing was stolen.
Stevamundo
Apr 28, 06:02 PM
Microsoft is still doing very well. They're making the best products they ever have done and as a customer I am very pleased with all of my Microsoft purchases.
- Zune desktop software
- Zune hardware and mobile software
- Windows Phone 7
- Windows 7
- Office 2010
- Office 2011 for Mac
- Xbox 360
- Xbox Live
All great products and deserve to be class leaders if they are not already. I can't think of another company (including Apple) that has put out such a fantastic range of very good products.
Really? I mean really? Zune? You forgot to write down Vista too kid. LOL!
- Zune desktop software
- Zune hardware and mobile software
- Windows Phone 7
- Windows 7
- Office 2010
- Office 2011 for Mac
- Xbox 360
- Xbox Live
All great products and deserve to be class leaders if they are not already. I can't think of another company (including Apple) that has put out such a fantastic range of very good products.
Really? I mean really? Zune? You forgot to write down Vista too kid. LOL!
trip1ex
Mar 22, 04:45 PM
4 core i5 and HD3000 integrated graphics on the low-end?
TheKrillr
Sep 5, 05:53 PM
Tell ya what..If I want to watch a full length movie I'm gonna do it in my living room in front of my TV NOT wherever the computer is.
Exactly why there'd be the video equivalent of airtunes... haven't you been paying attention?
Exactly why there'd be the video equivalent of airtunes... haven't you been paying attention?
blackburn
Apr 19, 07:32 AM
Should be studying in law school instead of engineering. No innovative products but loads of cash to be made:D Lawsuits everywhere.
ChrisA
Sep 14, 11:57 AM
I doubt Apple will introduce new hardware at this photography show. OK maybe a C2D MBP but that is a minor upgrade, basically just a speed bump. You don't send out invetations to a "special event" and then anounce a "speed bump"
I think it will be software. First will be Aperture 2.0 that addresses same of the issues. Remember months ago when Apple disbanded the Aperture software team? What we will see on the 24th is the work done so far by the new development team. I expect to see some new ideas, better performance and better RAW processing.
But a special event just for one version release? They will have to have something else. A "One more thing..." item. My gues is a new software package. A l photo editor. I doubt Apple will try and compete with Adobe's CS2 or CS3 but they could take on Adobe's "Elements". or more narowly, PSE's editing abilty. There is room for a pixel editor that has a better user interfacethan Adobe. Apple could have looked at Nikon's "Cature NX" and how it uses "control point" and does not destructive editing.
Apple could also do something to make color managment simpler and easier. Wouldn't it be realy nice if the ACD had a built-in color measurement ability. Self monitoring. Or maybe an abient light color measurement so it would "know" if the room was lit with window light or flourecent. This kind of thinng would give people a reason to by ACD rather then Dell or whatever is cheaper. It wuld be revolutionary and worth of a "special event"
I think it will be software. First will be Aperture 2.0 that addresses same of the issues. Remember months ago when Apple disbanded the Aperture software team? What we will see on the 24th is the work done so far by the new development team. I expect to see some new ideas, better performance and better RAW processing.
But a special event just for one version release? They will have to have something else. A "One more thing..." item. My gues is a new software package. A l photo editor. I doubt Apple will try and compete with Adobe's CS2 or CS3 but they could take on Adobe's "Elements". or more narowly, PSE's editing abilty. There is room for a pixel editor that has a better user interfacethan Adobe. Apple could have looked at Nikon's "Cature NX" and how it uses "control point" and does not destructive editing.
Apple could also do something to make color managment simpler and easier. Wouldn't it be realy nice if the ACD had a built-in color measurement ability. Self monitoring. Or maybe an abient light color measurement so it would "know" if the room was lit with window light or flourecent. This kind of thinng would give people a reason to by ACD rather then Dell or whatever is cheaper. It wuld be revolutionary and worth of a "special event"
BeSweeet
May 3, 12:21 PM
Love the free upgrade to the Magic Trackpad... I already have an $80 mouse (the Logitech MX Revolution) so I don't need a Magic Mouse, but I would love a free Magic Trackpad!
Matthew
I wouldn't consider it as being "free", since I'm sure they put it into the actual price of the iMac.
Matthew
I wouldn't consider it as being "free", since I'm sure they put it into the actual price of the iMac.
direzz
Aug 28, 04:15 PM
On time? The other companies just announced, and are not actually shipping. Give apple time, I'm sure they'll be shipping before the others. :-)
yea, with tons of problems to the machines.
i love apple, but everytime i buy one of there laptops, they suck!
yea, with tons of problems to the machines.
i love apple, but everytime i buy one of there laptops, they suck!
ethana
May 3, 12:25 PM
I just called three local Apple Stores in the Seattle area and not a single one has the new iMacs in stock. Is this happening to everyone else? I really wanted to pick mine up today!
xenotaku
Sep 14, 07:05 AM
the iPhone is going to be a useless product unless they release it in big enough sizes to replace my iPod. It's like carrying two ipods around. I already have a 60 gig...why would I spend the extra money to buy an expensive phone that only holds 5 gigs or something? It's just a dumb idea, unless they release major sizes that can replace the big ipods. I don't know why everyone is drooling over this thing.
iScott428
Mar 29, 11:56 AM
I will pay any attention to this when someone can show me that in 2007 that they predicted that Android would be the market share leader in smartphones in 2011.
One year projections are tricky. Four year projections in an emerging tech category are a joke. What about WebOS or Motorola's new OS for smartphones? They may not go anywhere or they might and these yahoos don't even account for them at all.
The very fact that they honestly seem to think that the only smartphone OSes that will have any sort of market share in four years are the ones that exist today tells you just how much anyone should pay attention to this.
By far the best post in this thread. Well Said.
One year projections are tricky. Four year projections in an emerging tech category are a joke. What about WebOS or Motorola's new OS for smartphones? They may not go anywhere or they might and these yahoos don't even account for them at all.
The very fact that they honestly seem to think that the only smartphone OSes that will have any sort of market share in four years are the ones that exist today tells you just how much anyone should pay attention to this.
By far the best post in this thread. Well Said.
DJMastaWes
Jul 19, 11:03 PM
another update in Q1 2007? damn. So fast, but screw it, once the new MBP design is out, I'm ordering. I wish it was the 7th, but now most likly the 12 of September.
loungecorps
May 1, 01:23 AM
Curious that everyone is clamoring for a thunderbolt-enabled machine, but there isn't a single thunderbolt drive available on the market.
I guess some people just need to feel like they have new stuff even if it's totally pointless.
post production just got cheaper because of this. thunderbolt is being adopted quickly by company's the manufacture video equpment
I guess some people just need to feel like they have new stuff even if it's totally pointless.
post production just got cheaper because of this. thunderbolt is being adopted quickly by company's the manufacture video equpment
wnurse
Aug 23, 10:08 PM
So, in summary...
Apple pays Creative a one time fee of $100M to licence their patents.
Creative joins the 'Made for iPod' program making accessories for their competitor, Apple, who gets money for 'Made for iPod'.
Creative still HAS to defend it's patent against other competitors - that's the nature of patents - or licence it to them. If they do, Apple takes some of that money too. In a round-a-bout way, Apple is getting money back from it's competitors. Nice.
Creative have a much better case because Apple settled.
Creative still owns a valid patent. If Apple had won, there would be no patent so anyone could copy the Creative/Apple style interface.
Apple continues on as if nothing has happened. No long court case delaying sales. No injunctions to halt imports.
Explain to me why people think Apple lost here?
Creative knew it was about to get reamed by Microsoft's Zune which it's players aren't compatible with. They knew to get out of the market. Instead of legitimising Microsoft's offering, they've tied up with Apple. It might bug us that Apple have legitimised a bogus patent but it's otherwise very, very smart.
Interesting, I did not know so many apple fans were lawyers and patent experts. Some call the patent bogus, some claim apple really didn't infringe but felt like being santa claus to creative and some even claim that the lawsuit would have cost apple 100 million (like it would have cost creative 0. Why not slug it out and see how much creative have in the coffers to pay their lawyers?). You guys would all make excellent attorneys!!!.
I'll summarize.
1. Apple infringed on the patent
2. Apple paid license for use of the patent
3. Go watch TV.. show over folks.
Apple could blow a hundred million in legal expenses. It's less of an instance of throwing in the towel, and more of an instance of, "You know, the way idiot judges/juries hand out settlements these days, let's just give them a paltry sum, let them think they've won, and still destroy them in the MP3 market."
Actually, creative won, regardless of whether apple destroys them in the market or not. Man, even Steven (jobs) is not as pissed as you all are. I think he's lying comfortable in his bed right now, probably watching the news. Chill out. Companies infringe on other companies patents all the time. Companies settle all the time. This is not an abnormal event.
Apple pays Creative a one time fee of $100M to licence their patents.
Creative joins the 'Made for iPod' program making accessories for their competitor, Apple, who gets money for 'Made for iPod'.
Creative still HAS to defend it's patent against other competitors - that's the nature of patents - or licence it to them. If they do, Apple takes some of that money too. In a round-a-bout way, Apple is getting money back from it's competitors. Nice.
Creative have a much better case because Apple settled.
Creative still owns a valid patent. If Apple had won, there would be no patent so anyone could copy the Creative/Apple style interface.
Apple continues on as if nothing has happened. No long court case delaying sales. No injunctions to halt imports.
Explain to me why people think Apple lost here?
Creative knew it was about to get reamed by Microsoft's Zune which it's players aren't compatible with. They knew to get out of the market. Instead of legitimising Microsoft's offering, they've tied up with Apple. It might bug us that Apple have legitimised a bogus patent but it's otherwise very, very smart.
Interesting, I did not know so many apple fans were lawyers and patent experts. Some call the patent bogus, some claim apple really didn't infringe but felt like being santa claus to creative and some even claim that the lawsuit would have cost apple 100 million (like it would have cost creative 0. Why not slug it out and see how much creative have in the coffers to pay their lawyers?). You guys would all make excellent attorneys!!!.
I'll summarize.
1. Apple infringed on the patent
2. Apple paid license for use of the patent
3. Go watch TV.. show over folks.
Apple could blow a hundred million in legal expenses. It's less of an instance of throwing in the towel, and more of an instance of, "You know, the way idiot judges/juries hand out settlements these days, let's just give them a paltry sum, let them think they've won, and still destroy them in the MP3 market."
Actually, creative won, regardless of whether apple destroys them in the market or not. Man, even Steven (jobs) is not as pissed as you all are. I think he's lying comfortable in his bed right now, probably watching the news. Chill out. Companies infringe on other companies patents all the time. Companies settle all the time. This is not an abnormal event.
wizard
Apr 4, 12:59 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)
Rent-a-cops have guns? And shoot people IN THE HEAD? I'm amazed.
That said, this is pretty ******. Sure, the guy was a criminal lowlife, and he certainly deserved punishment, but I don't think he deserved to get killed. Oh well.
The only problem I have is that only one of these jerks ended up dead. Seriously, the legal system failed us a long time ago, we don't have much of a choice anymore. Frankly I abandoned all hope of ever seeing crime effectively reduced in this country when the Supreme Court decided it was illegal to execute minors which is one of the Courts most stupid and politically motivated decisions ever. Society is best served by removing the criminal element as early as possible.
Rent-a-cops have guns? And shoot people IN THE HEAD? I'm amazed.
That said, this is pretty ******. Sure, the guy was a criminal lowlife, and he certainly deserved punishment, but I don't think he deserved to get killed. Oh well.
The only problem I have is that only one of these jerks ended up dead. Seriously, the legal system failed us a long time ago, we don't have much of a choice anymore. Frankly I abandoned all hope of ever seeing crime effectively reduced in this country when the Supreme Court decided it was illegal to execute minors which is one of the Courts most stupid and politically motivated decisions ever. Society is best served by removing the criminal element as early as possible.
